Bogut or Paul?????

[Wretch]

And the fact that you bring up talent into the equation shows how badly you need to get hooked on phonics.

I'm only talking about his height.

[Vafan]

Have you seen Iverson in person? I have stood next to him. He is maybe 5ft10 tops. But he is an incredible athlete.

[JTFan31]

You have convinced me even more, Walter.

These days is so hard to find a good center with size, and we found him with Bogut, of course if we do end up with the 1st pick of the draft. But no way I would select Paul or Bogut.

We desperately need a center and the truth of the matter is, yes we do not have a PG and yes we kind of do.

He is the question, Would you rather go in next season with this lineup:

Paul - PG

Chill- SG

Smoove- SF

Harrington- PF

Ekezie- C

Right now as it stands, that will most likely be the starting lineup and it might be Collier instead of Ekezie

Or would you rather have this lineup:

Lue- PG

Chill- SG

Smoove- SF

Harrington- PF

Bogut- C

I would take this lineup as my starters next season ANYDAY over the first lineup I mentioned. Yes maybe Lue is no allstar, but he is not a bad little PG neither, and his defense is better than Paul. We all know what Lue can do, he can shoot the ball extremely well, he penetrates very well also and constantly. I really think that we need Bogut much more than we need Paul's services.

[KBatPCSOM]

Quote:

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NBA Comparison: Kenny Anderson

Strengths: Paul is the consummate point guard. He is a mature leader, wise beyond his years. He can score and get into the paint and drop the catchable pass with the best of them. A 3 point marksman that will knock it down if given room.

His foot quickness makes him a capable ball hawk on defense when he picks his man up. To lead the ACC in steals as a freshman tells you a little about his defensive ability.

His character and heart on and off the court make him a GM's dream. Will have a chance to be a star in the league, and it will be his passion for the game that will keep him from falling off.

Weaknesses: At under 6 foot, he's very small for the pro game. His intangibles and athleticism help to make up for it some. Improved strength and a year of maturing will help him avoid the dreaded sophomore jinx that Chris Thomas suffered a two years ago. Point guards are judged by their teams play, and with his team this year should reflect the type of player he is, a Champion.

-Aran Smith 9/20/04

---

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Omar Thomas, one of the great stories of the tournament after overcoming a childhood in which his father and two brothers were imprisoned for murder, scored 24 in his final collegiate game,

many of the points coming in drives around the slower Bogut.

``I take everybody like that pretty much,'' Thomas said. ``I knew he wasn't that fast going side to side so I tried to go around him.''

---

Defensive Liability.

[Guest Walter]

Sorry, my bad Wretch. I would say Paul is Brevin Knight short. Why? He also has very short arms.

W

[Weez]

Agreeing with Walter here, how in the world can you say a pg's 'defensive abilities' dont matter? I'll give you that Nash doesn't play Defense (which, combined with his age/style of play was why MANY questioned the contract he got last year)...

but look no further than our Hawks. How many times have be been flat out BURNED by opposing pg's this year? Oftentimes by 'no name guys'? And those lapses by Lue (and why many like Ivey, though I don't 'know' if you have defended Ivey needing more pt or not). I for one have complained numerous times about Lue...not becuase he didn't score or get some dimes, but because the other pg lit us up for even more...

[Wretch]

I'm not saying that it doesn't matter. Walt takes the context of a post and stretches it.

Example...I say that my biggest question about Paul is whether he's Iverson short or Knight short...and all of a sudden, I have implied that Paul will become the next Iverson and I'm ignoring the collegiate performances of both.

Wow.

What I said was that I place less importance on a PGs perimeter defense than I do on a C's interior defense. Mainly because a center will be responsible for help on anyone who comes into the lane. Guys on the perimeter are only concerned with thier man and helping to contain the threat.

Regardless, one on one, everybody is going to get by on the perimeter. You do not stop guys on the NBA level like that. You contain them with a good team and a good defensive scheme. You play good team defense...and occaisonally, you get a guy like Artest or Bowen that has a knack for putting the clamps on guys. However, on a nightly basis, you are not going to stop Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, or Marbury from scoring or passing. No matter how tall you are. Arguing against that only shows a bias or lack of basketball knowledge. You don't stop guys on the perimeter, especially not the good ones. Guys like Iverson (stats), Marbury (Stats), Nash (stats), Bibby (stats), they are going to score on anyone when they want to REGARDLESS of who's guarding them.

These other guys might be no names, but they are not without talent. Nobody in the NBA is. They are the best 300+ players in the country and from around the planet out of MILLIONS. You might think guys like Dan Dickau or Lindsey Hunter are scrubs, but they are not. I would look up the (+/-)'s but this already takes far too much of my time. I don't see him as our problem, the team lacks talent and defensive unity. They lack an anchor...and they SERIOUSLY lack an interior presence.

...and on a side, if we're saying that Paul can't defend because of his height, then why doesn't that apply to Iverson? Unless we're saying that AI is just a better defender, in which case...why couldn't Paul learn to be?

[drzachary]

I'm just tired of seeing goofy white stiffs in the NBA. The Hawks need someone like Paul. That is, to say, black!

[Wretch]

Unless you're saying people like Bogut because he's white. Nobody is going to pass up talent based on color. I'd gladly take a young Sabonis/Divac/Brad Miller hybrid with STAR potential.

[Guest Walter]

You're not here to suggest Bogut was defending a 6'5" player are you? LOL

Omar Thomas is 6'5" and averages 20/7. He got his average but shot and boarded (2) below his average against Bogut's help defense (sorry, I'm still laughing). I can sight at least 10, maybe 15 games where Pgs got more than their season scoring average against Paul.

Diesel, you do bring up a good point/ whoever drafts Bogut, don't expect him to guard Ruben Patterson.

BTW, Utah won that game and Bogut went for 24/11 on 9-13 shooting (2-3 from behind the arc) and 4 blocks.

W

[Diesel]

Omar Thomas, ...., scored 24 in his final collegiate game, many of the points coming in drives around the slower Bogut.

Yes. I'm suggesting that Bogut couldn't stop a 6'5" / 205 lb post player. What's he going to do in the NBA?

BTW.. As an interior defender, he will be expected to give Help defense. Omar Thomas is not good enough to get in the league... What will Bogut do against real competition.

Need I mention that Every Olympic C that played against AUS had their Olympic High?? Even the guy from Angola...

How do you expect him to gaurd NBA competition...

Obviously.. You don't expect him to be able to stop smaller players from scoring over their average. Neither do you expect him to be a help defender in the defensive scheme...

Hell.. Somebody go get my 86 yr old Granddaddy in his easy chair because he's a better defender than Bogut.

[Weez]

Diesel, that being said, you seem to allude to the fact that you would prefer a center to be a better help defender than a man-man defender correct? Like Theo (a GREAT help defender in the paint, but a sorry one-to-one defender).

Did anyone actually watch the game? by 'going around bogut' do you mean backing him down and then drop stepping or spinnign past him? or driving, using a cut move or up and under, to get to the hole?

if the latter, that would seem to demonstrate the sorry play of Bogut's teammates, who so causually 'olay-ed' him into the interior.

[Diesel]

Actually, It's not an either or... I want a Center that can do BOTH.

But realize, Bogut hasn't proven that he can do either.

The point is every major Post scorer that Bogut faced, with the exception of Morris who had foul trouble, got more than his average... with Bogut being a post defender.

Weather it was Frye, or Gray or Thomas... And a lot of times, they scored by taking it right to Bogut. The reason is because Bogut does NOT dominate the lane. Even in the OK game, you saw Ok Gaurds and Taj Gray trying to come in and get highlight dunks down the lane while Bogut was in the middle. He did nothing to stop them.

What's going to happen in the pros?

[Guest Walter]

'6'5" "post" player'. Like that one. Go ahead. Name all the 6'5" post players in the NBA. If there are 3 I'll stop laughing and respond.

Oh my gut. The need to be right when you're wrong will make you do say silly things Diesel. SILLY!

Bogut hasn't proven what? Unlike Paul who allowed his ACC opponents more points and a higher FG%, Bogut cut his quality, 6'9" or taller opposing centers PPG by 3.8, their rebounds IN HALF to 3.8, and their FG% by 9%. He can guard his man NO DOUBT! Paul against NBA draftable Pgs they average almost 5 PPG more and shoot 15.5% higher! DAMN that's horrible!

Bogut has PROVEN he CAN guard his man. Paul has PROVEN he CAN'T guard his. Measuring the specialty of help defense is next to impossible (and is the only thing you have left to argue), but Bogut has all the intangibles except lateral quickness. Not much of an issue when you're 7-7'1", have a wingspan wider than Yao's, have big/good hands, have a great B-ball IQ, have good footwork and positioning, and are only 20.

6'5" post-players. If that's what Bogut has to fear, he's gonna be just fine.

W

[Admin]

Bump

[AtLaS]

Classic Walter thread right here..

[Admin]

It's fun to go back and read what people REALLY thought about Chris Paul before the draft. There was an ENORMOUS amount of love for Jarrett Jack and Raymond Felton around these parts.

[AtLaS]

I was huge on Felton and Paul, not much of a Deron fan. Regardless at 2 I would've never chosen Marvin.

[Admin]

I was always in the Deron camp. I supported Marvin (and still do) but after watching Illinois that year I really didn't want anyone else.