Trying to sum this all up

[Guest Walter]

...can one see (defend) but the other not?

That's the Diesel lack's internal consistency logic 099 course syllabus. Bone up on your common sense because a test happens everyday.

Forgot the Diesel hypocrisy extra credit question. How is it that Diesel can accuse me of "knocking down" Deron because "my" top pick prospect in Bogut doesn't stand alone when all he does his post against Bogut (and never for Deron)? I expect Diesel's first pro-Deron post in 5, 4, 3, 2,...

W

[Diesel]

he still put up 20/10 against ur team and their 3-headed monster

He shot 44% against UK too...

This is the bottom line about that game and that stat...

When you shot the ball more than 20 times and your team is losing the whole game and you're the main goto guy... You're supposed to get at least 20 points.

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he still lead scrubs to the sweet 16

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You can't have it both ways...

You can't call Utah Scrubs when they lose then try to justify the team's conference as being a tough conference or even a moderate conference....

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he still did well against arizona, etc

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Etc = ???

He always does well offensively because he's the tallest player on the court. However, my question is about his defense. Where is it. Against Arizona, he allowed Frye to have a career day...

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he still won mvp in international play at a young age

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Dude... What International player hasn't won some form of MVP at a young age in international play? Name one. Darko has several. I won't begin to tell you how big a legend Luc Longley is in Austrialia... Ask some of these Aussies about Luc Longley. If they are anywhere near Honest,they will tell you that Longley is an ICON.

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he still was top 5 in 4+ categories in the olympics

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Defense wasn't one of them.. Every opposing Center of Austrialia scored his Olympic High (FG% included) playing against Bogut.

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remember, chill was the top rebounder in the pac10 last year as a sf and that translated over to the 4th best rookie rebounder, even as sg.

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Yeah, and Chill is also athletic and has lots of lift. Bogut may be able to get position, but he has NO LIFT. Or very little lift. He won't be able to tip-toe and outrebound the guys in this league. For example Look at the career of Chris Kaman so far. Out of C. Mich, he averaged 22/12... Similar to Bogut. I think he has even more lift than Bogut but thus far it has only translated to 6.7 rpg in 26 mpg.

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okafor was shady offensively and is doing fine...no reason to not believe bogut can't do it as well....

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Nobody is questioning Bogut's offense.

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players that dominated college have come out and been stars

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Players that were dominate in Strong Conferences... Like:

Shaq - LSU - SEC

Morning - Georgetown - Big East.

Anybody that dominated the ACC.

But I can show you many more cases when a player from a weak conference put up good stats but came out and it didn't translate to domination on the pro level.

Chris Kaman is a good example. So is Olowakhandi.

Both guys put up eye popping Stats in weak conferences... Both have been mediocre players in the pros.

[Nicholasp27]

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You can't have it both ways...

You can't call Utah Scrubs when they lose then try to justify the team's conference as being a tough conference or even a moderate conference....

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there u go again, putting words in my mouth...

i never tried to justify utah's conference as being tough or even moderate...

[Diesel]

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here u go again, putting words in my mouth...

i never tried to justify utah's conference as being tough or even moderate...

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When you say that Bogut dominated the NCAA... That is basically saying that you believe that he played in a premier conference... or at least one that is of a sufficient quality to be compared with the rest of the conferences in the NCAA... This was my point exactly.

I answered the original post by saying my cousin dominated the NCAA because his stats were 26/6/7 coming out of Atlanta Metropolitan. The point of that was to show that Just because you can be a dominate player in a weak conference does not mean that you can dominate the NCAA nor can you dominate the pros...

However, your continued assertions of Bogut being a dominate NCAA player means that you HAVE to believe that Utah played in a quality conference.. That assertion, I call BS... Utah played against the High Point Universities and the Western Utah's... Bogut stats are paper stats.. Him doing the same in the pros is no more realistic than Derrick Dail's college game translating to a pro game....

THIS my friend is part of the point...

Bogut didn't play against many good teams. When he did play good teams, what did he do.. especially defensively?

Nothing.

[Diesel]

Walt..

Other than only having seen Bogut play one time...

The problem that is constant with you is you cannot justify your own guy...

How many people are you seeing on this board saying...

Chris Paul should be the pick because Bogut is ....

Even me.. I have said that If we pick Bogut we will have to make changes to our interior defense by adding somebody like Ben Wallace to play PF because Bogut is not a good defender.

However, with you, there is no looking at Bogut and justifying him based on him...

You have to find some other paper statue to tear down in order to justify him...

Deron Williams led the #1 team in the nation in a strong conference for many weeks. IN the NCAA tourney, he shut down the best PGs with his man to man defense. The only weakness that I see in Williams is that he doesn't have a burst of speed. Still he's a big, fully capable PG who has a very good court vision and awareness and I believe he can be like Mark Jackson...

Can you do the same with Bogut?

I doubt it...

You're too busy trying to find the weakness of anybody else mentioned to look honestly at Bogut.

[Nicholasp27]

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When you say that Bogut dominated the NCAA... That is basically saying that you believe that he played in a premier conference... or at least one that is of a sufficient quality to be compared with the rest of the conferences in the NCAA... This was my point exactly.

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there u go putting words into my mouth again...

by dominate the ncaa, i mean that he put up the best stats, took a team of scrubs to the sweet 16, won player of the year...

ur choice to think someone has to be in one of the top conferences to dominate the ncaa...not mine...

[Nicholasp27]

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When he did play good teams, what did he do..

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besides lead scrubs to the 16, beating uk?

besides matching duncan's pts and rebounds?

besides putting up 20/10 against uconn?

besides putting up great numbers against arizona and any other competition that he faced?

[Diesel]

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besides lead scrubs to the 16, beating uk?

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Uhm.. You must have lost sight of the facts? UK beat Utah like they always do.. Or had you forgotten that? or did you even see the game?

Secondly, I saw WV in the sweet 16 too...In fact, I saw them in the Elite 8...

You think we should go looking for Pittsnogle? Hell, he took his scrub team farther than Bogut did...

Do you see the ridiculousness of your point?

If you would have looked over the games that Utah played, they were lucky... LUCKY to get passed the first round. Had it not been for some of those "SCRUBS" they would not have made it past UTEP.. It was a Scrub that stole the ball on the last possession of that game. It was 2 scrubs who carried the Utes in the 2nd half of that game when Bogut couldn't be found.

In the Oklahoma game.. Bogut did his share of passing but he only contributed 10 points. With very little on the defensive end. It was Oklahoma's coach to blame.

UK disposed of Utah with very little effort. One of their better players only played 5 minutes.. Not because he was in foul trouble, but because with the other 7 footers on Bogut, Bogut had problems.

[Guest Walter]

You select single-game instances where Pfs scored their averages against Utah and insist that is shows Bogut is a poor defender. I set quality control requirements such as the opposing center must be listed as 6'9" or taller and be of quality (8 PPG average or more. I then AVERAGE 9 games Bogut had against said opponents and demonstrate that against Bogut these QUALITY CENTERS scored less (3.8 PPG), rebounded 50% less (3.8 RPG), and shot worse (9% worse). You won't touch these FACTS and have always run from them.

Moreover, if in Bogut's worst game against a 3-headed 7' monster, he holds them over more minutes below their collect season average and still gets 20/12, you'd think you'd have to check your bias for a moment. Nah, "FACTS" mean something to you, right. Except not the greater number of ones against you.

W

[Nicholasp27]

yeah, i said the wrong team names...my bad

[Diesel]

I don't avoid your stats Walt.

I pointed out that you selectively picked and choose Centers who were not on winning teams.... WOW.. Whoopee... Bogut puts up good stats against a guy who will go back to his hometown and be a grocery bagger...

I showed you stats of what Bogut did against Winning teams. What did you do..

Well first you lied and pulled up some crap from last yr.. and accused me of lying... Then you totally ignored the fact that most of these guys put up better than their average playing Bogut. On top of that, you keep bring up the 6'5" and 6'7" players that blatantly came out and said, "I took it right at him because I knew that he couldn't defend a moving target".

How is it that you find it so inconcievable to think that Bogut will never be matched up against a smaller player... Defenses have to switch often. Once a team finds out that Bogut can't gaurd somebody like Shawn Marion, what do you think will happen?? You think they are going to say.. OH.. he can't gaurd Marion. It's not fair, Marion's only 6'8. or Oh, He has too many problems trying to stop Zach Randolph in the post... Let's make sure we don't make that switch again.. Get Pryz back out there.

Moreover, what about the Centers that are not Slow...

What happens when it's Omeka Okafor or Chris Bosh?

The league will have a field day on Bogut.

[Diesel]

Actually, Bogut's worst game..

Was not the Kentucky game.

It had to be Utah State...

When he let a 6'7" C dominate his weak defense.

And Utah lost something like 71 - 57.

Or was it the Arizona game... Where Bogut disappear in the 2nd half when Frye got back on the court.

Or was it the UTEP game... Where Bogut started off good, but was shut down in the second half and he couldn't stop NOBODY from scoring.

[Guest Walter]

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I don't avoid your stats Walt.

I pointed out that you selectively picked and choose Centers who were not on winning teams....

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Nothing selective about it...

The ONLY criteria was that they play against Bogut (duh?), be 6'9" or taller, and average 8 PPG or more.

Please tell me either what "selective" means to you or how this was selective?

I don't bring upsingle game performances by Sg-sized Pfs who scored well against Utah. Neither do I cite single game performances by Sgs against Paul.

I provide an average of actual performances by quality centers against Bogut. Yet, you disappear or avoid when you read over 9 games in 2004-2005 quality opposing centers over 6'9":

1) shot 9% lower

2) rebounded 50% less (3.8 RPG)

3) scored 3.8 fewer PPG

...against Bogut than for the season.

Diesel's response may be wordy but not a word of it will acknowledge these facts much less deal with them.

W

[Diesel]

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he ONLY criteria was that they play against Bogut (duh?), be 6'9" or taller, and average 8 PPG or more.

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The criteria I used was teams who were going to the NCAA tourney..

Why pull up the stats of the 7 footer from W. Utah or the 7 footer from USAF...

Those guys are not going to sniff the pros...

At least choose a team that's going somewhere. Since Utah only played 3 top 25 teams, I expanded to teams that were going to the NCAA tourney..

Wouldn't you think that's a better criteria than the Guy from NDSU who won't go anywhere but home??

[Nicholasp27]

so long as they are also 6'9 or taller

u don't find 6'5 pfs in the nba

[Weez]

using stats only against teams going to the ncaa tourney penalizes any player from a 'not top 6' conference.

including the mwc.

if that's your argument, that those conferences, and thereby nearly any players from said conferences, are indeed inferior based upon the competition they faced....well...

[CBAreject]

criteria is plural

[Guest Walter]

...much less teams consisting of Sg-sized Pfs.

1) You SELECTED games you thought would make Bogut look bad (even though he wasn't even defending those guys).

2) You used single-game analysis only.

3) You provided no basis for deciding who Bogut would be guarding (i.e. a 6'5" player over his 6'8" teamate? Are you [censored] serious?!?)

4) You threw up stats that we often at or below an opposing player's season averages only to claim that they had a good game against Bogut

Diesel, you're a mad scientist without a scientific method.

I, on the otherhand:

1) didn't select games but dicided a basic criteria (what height is the unspoken minimum requirement for an NBA center - 6'9" - and what could ensure a quality opponent - 8 PPG or more season average)

2) used the 9 available games

3) By using a considerable minimum height requirement I effectively eliminated Bogut defending another player on an opposing team

Lastly,...

4) I compared the quality center's performance relative to their season average

In science you have double blind, random control, cross-over trials as the gold standard. Diesel you had too few subjects to make a conclusion, chose your subjects based upon what you thought would make Bogut look bad, can't account for who guarded who, and often still make the wrong conlcusion based upon your already bogus evidence...you are the late 18th century American snake oil salesman of statistics. One game where a Pf scores against Utah's Pf...put it in a salve, rub it on, and not only can Utah's center not defend but that goiter on your neck will half it's size overnight.

Lastly, Diesel you put down these guys you've never seen play, but the guy from Weber State was top 5 in the nation in rebounding (12 RPG) and averaged around 18 PPG for a 6'11", 270 Lb guy. that's DAMN good! Loren Woods is good, so is the guy from LSU, Dunn, and again, all the guys were 6'9" or taller, each was heavier than Bogut, all quality, and none were hand picked by yours truly to demonstrate anything but the scientific truth.

W

[Diesel]

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sing stats only against teams going to the ncaa tourney penalizes any player from a 'not top 6' conference.

including the mwc.

if that's your argument, that those conferences, and thereby nearly any players from said conferences, are indeed inferior based upon the competition they faced....well...

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If you can't elevate your team past .500, then you're not a pro prospect anyway. From the MWC, Utah and UNM went to the NCAA tourney...

You know... I was going to prove my point by mentioning the first of many unworthy C s that played for unworthy teams. The first team Utah played was Stony Brook.. Yeah, I know sounds like a community college team right? I believe it is. Anyway... Their C is another 6'7" player... I went to look up how unworthy he is to be talked about when I read this in his profile:

Scored a team high of 22 points, went 8-11 from the floor and grabbed 6 rebounds against Utah (11/19) . . .

You know...

I'm not going to waste my breath on Bogut. You guys.. NIck, Weez, and Walt are the three stooges who fail to see that Bogut can't guard an old man sitting in a chair... I now realize that you three will not even respond to reason. I mean Damn... talking about teams that made it to the NCAA tourne "isn't fair to Bogut... We got to show how he defends against ahmm.. Slow ass 6'9 and above players who play for community colleges in and around Utah."

Whatever.

[Diesel]

I didn't pick games that would make Bogut Look bad.

I picked games against the best competition.

i would say that Bogut looked good in at least one of those (Washington) and it's a toss up with UK.. for those who didn't see it.

But your 1 game wonder is so Bogut Sensitive.

Your Boyfriend should play better defense and there wouldn't be a game to make him look bad.