Weez Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Kandi was lauded for his international play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 exactly...i've wondered why everyone will say "next jordan" to any baller that can score, but are afraid to say "next duncan" about bogut i've seen only a few of the scouting sites dare to say it, and usually with a disclaimer "i'm not saying he'll be as good"...but nobody uses a disclaimer when comparing a 20ppg player to jordan, the GOAT... maybe it is because of skin color...what else could it be to warrant that disclaimer? the only other thing i can think of is that duncan is still playing and jordan is retired...but people compare others to vince/kobe/tmac all the time, so that doesn't work either... someone who was actually at the game said it looked like duncan was playing himself and a few others will mention it and then disclaim it... but the fact is, they are very similiar in style, although duncan has a lil more athleticism so he can play pf i've said it before, and i'll say it again, i think bogut can be as good of a center as duncan can be...i don't think he can be as good of a pf as duncan, but if duncan played center full-time, i think bogut would be just as good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAreject Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Bachelor 3, same question. I also wonder about this. As I remember, Kandi didn't start playing basketball until he was a sophomore in college. He didn't have a decent season until his senior year, and he really wasn't on the radar until the year he was drafted. BUT, if it helps Diesel's argument. Anyway, Kandi's problem was not his skill level, it was his desire. Kandi could've been a top 5 center in the league. He just didn't want it. He also had injury problems. He was also a miserable shooter in college from outside 6 feet. Injuries are sometimes hard to predict. Desire can be measured more easily. It's clear that Bogut has more desire than Kandi ever has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Again, you got to look at the context of where all this happened. Bogut is an excellent rebounder in the MWC where he can tip top and reach over players to get a board. He has very little lift. That is the same thing that hurt Drobs in the pros... That and lacking lateral movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin chillzatl Posted April 22, 2005 Admin Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 where he faced bigger AND better competition. How do you explain that away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastDon Posted April 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 To pull the race card in this situation is disgraceful. I don't care about color as long as a guy can go out and perform. I love the way Dirk,AK-47,Yao,Brad Miller, and Big Z play!! I just think that from what I've seen of Bogut that he plays alot like Okur. Both are physical and have great foot work in the post,both can hit the medium range J but both lack the leaping ability that would make them an elite superstar player. Anyone who would say that being compared to Okur,or Big Z is racist is unbelievable to me. Their is no way you could compare Bogut's game to that of Yao,Duncan, and Shaq because his style of play is totally different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Actually, you're right. I confused Kandi with another guy. However, he still fits the profile. Played at a Small School (Pacific). Led them to the NCAA. Got picked #1 in a weak draft based on bloated stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Quote: To pull the race card in this situation is disgraceful. I don't care about color as long as a guy can go out and perform. I love the way Dirk,AK-47,Yao,Brad Miller, and Big Z play!! I just think that from what I've seen of Bogut that he plays alot like Okur. Both are physical and have great foot work in the post,both can hit the medium range J but both lack the leaping ability that would make them an elite superstar player. Anyone who would say that being compared to Okur,or Big Z is racist is unbelievable to me. Their is no way you could compare Bogut's game to that of Yao,Duncan, and Shaq because his style of play is totally different. actually, bogut's style of play is VERY VERY similiar to duncan...he just won't ever be as good as duncan...but they play basically the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Bigger competition. Tofi - 6'8" Bookout - 6'8" Shangari - 7'3" So, he faced 2 guys 6'8" inches and one guy who was tall, but who plays very little and whoose rebounding is not so good Even though he's plenty tall... Good argument Chillz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin chillzatl Posted April 22, 2005 Admin Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 One minute you discount his results because of the quality of competition he faced in the MWC. Next minute you discount his results because of the height of players he faced in the MWC. Next minute you discount his results because of the height of the players he faced in the tourney. But regardless, considering that there aren't very many 7' guys in the NBA that are good box-out defenders, logic stands that he will still be an exellent rebounder at the NBA level. On top of that you still managed to avoid the meat of my original post "his attitude and desire". You compare him to guys based simply on physical attributes. But you don't give him the credit for his attitude, intensity and desire. Again, the same attitude, instensity and desire you have used in the past to lend credibility to your ideas of taking local prospects over euro prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 My whole point about the competition that Bogut has faced is that it's weak. I do believe he faced better guys in the NCAA than when he was playing: Weber State, Air Force, High Point University, and Southern Utah... And the others... But none of the guys he faced in this season with the exception of Frye are guys going pro... I think you're trying too hard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin chillzatl Posted April 22, 2005 Admin Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 It's not difficult to point out your inconsistancies. Again, you avoid the issue of attitude, intensity and desire. All very valid and tangible attributes that play a significant role in a players success in the NBA. Great players routinely make up for physical shortcomings with their attitude, intensity and desire. I've raised this issue in several other threads where we were going back and forth and in those cases you either passed on commenting or didn't reply, presumably to let the thread die But make no mistake, i'm not trying to peck a fight here. I want you to respond to the question. Since there are no stats associated with attitude, desire and intensity, it shouldn't take you long to reply. You shouldn't have to do any long winded research. I've listed attributes and traits that Bogut posseses that are also recognized by the "experts" out there. These things clearly seperate him from the pack players that you consistantly compare him to. Why are those attributes defining reasons for drafting players when they're young, inner city american prospects. But they are somehow insignificant when they are possessed by Andrew Bogut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAreject Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Race card? Who called you 'racist'? You were the only one to use the word 'racist'. Turn off that mad face. This doesn't have anything to do with racism. White players get compared to other white players. Short players get compared to other short players. It's hard to escape our tendency to compare players based on physical appearance. This has nothing to do with racism...ignorance, maybe...no, probably (not to mention a short temper)....but not racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeans Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 While I won't take sides on either side of this argument, I will not be angry either way this draft goes because we NEED SO MUCH!! However, I leaning toward trading the No. 1 pick to get at least another high 1st round pick and fill several needs like Deron Williams and Sean May with both picks. That will fill our PG and PF situation. Sign Kwame Brown or/and Eddy Curry at Center. Overnight you have solved a lot of issues and instantly made this team much better. We have only 3 players guaranteed to come back next year...Josh Smith, Josh Childress and Al Harrington. This is why I think we need more than 1 1st round pick from this years draft. If we draft Bogut I will not be mad either. We need a Center with some skills so bad it is ridiculus. Peja can't shoot in the paint and Collier doesn't have a clue. Basically what I am saying is that we need everything at this point except a small forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I am no expert, but Bogut did not appear to me to be as athletic as Duncan. He reminds me of Brad Dougherty - good center who can score, rebound, pass and generally plays intelligent basketball. Dougherty was not a great center though in comparison to his more athletic contemporaries like Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson. That does not mean I would not take him first, just that he is not a prospect in the class of a Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. Dougherty was a number 1 pick I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Attitude... Means very little on the College Level Chillz.. It's not a factor. Bobby Hurley was probably the Most intense player to ever play College ball. Laettner was far more intense and skilled than Bogut. What happened when they got to the pro game?? Intensity and Attitude means very little. In fact, when has Desire been used to select a person in the draft. I haven't heard one GM say... He has a lot of Desire... Can you find one?? I think you're building a weak case on a weak point... What matters most is The basics.. What can he DO on the next level?? If he doesn't have latteral quickness or jump, he won't do much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted April 22, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Quote: I am no expert, but Bogut did not appear to me to be as athletic as Duncan. He reminds me of Brad Dougherty - good center who can score, rebound, pass and generally plays intelligent basketball. Dougherty was not a great center though in comparison to his more athletic contemporaries like Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson. That does not mean I would not take him first, just that he is not a prospect in the class of a Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. Dougherty was a number 1 pick I believe. EDS, I think that's a great comparison. Daugherty made five All-Star teams, had three 20/10 seasons, and averaged 3-4 assists a game. If that's the kind of player Bogut becomes (minus the constant injuries), I'll be more than satisfied with him as the Hawks' pick. Daugherty's Stats At age 26, guess which player Daugherty most resembled - Tim Duncan. Daugherty stop playing at age 28, otherwise he might be more highly regarded. He was drafted first in the infamous 1986 draft, one that had no real franchise players, but plenty of solid NBA players (Petrovic, Rodman, Salley, Harper, etc.). I guess Len Bias might have been that star, but we'll never know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 bogut is a better passer if smoove/chill turn out good, bogut could get brad's assists from 3-4 up to 5... bogut could be the only one in the league besides kg putting up 20/10/5... i think that's worth the #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Quote: bogut is a better passer if smoove/chill turn out good, bogut could get brad's assists from 3-4 up to 5... bogut could be the only one in the league besides kg putting up 20/10/5... i think that's worth the #1 Is Bogut a better passer then Dougherty? Dougherty was an excellent passing big man both at the collegiete level and in the pros. I think you are getting a little too hung up on statistics. I could care less if a center averages 2 assists or 7, as long as they dominate the paint defensively and are a threat to score everytime. Dougherty was a very good player, who unfortunately had his career cut short by injury. That said, it is unclear whether he was ever talented enough to lead his team to a championship or close to a championship. Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, and their ilk were great centers because they not only were dominate offensive players, but they were dominate defensive forces. They were intimidators. That intimidation was evident at the college level and carried over to the pros. Bogut, for all his talents, is not a defensive intimidator - or at least he did not appear to be one this past season. Again, he is still the most viable number 1 pick, but he is like Dougherty in the sense that he is a very good prospect but not great prospect. And for the record, I do not consider it disparaging of his talents to suggest that he may not be great. He probably will be a top 5 center in the NBA by 2009, but that might not be saying much since there are not currently 5 dominant centers. Guys like Miller and Ilglauskus are very good, but not dominant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted April 23, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Quote: Again, he is still the most viable number 1 pick, but he is like Dougherty in the sense that he is a very good prospect but not great prospect. And for the record, I do not consider it disparaging of his talents to suggest that he may not be great. He probably will be a top 5 center in the NBA by 2009, but that might not be saying much since there are not currently 5 dominant centers. Guys like Miller and Ilglauskus are very good, but not dominant. There's really nothing I disagree with here as long as it's not used as an argument to pass on Bogut. I just don't see anyone in this draft who has the potential to be dominant. Someone probably will emerge as that player, but almost no one on this board will have picked the right player... So, in the absence of stardom, you take "very good." BTW, Daugherty did help lead the Cavs to the EC Conf finals in 1992, where they fell in 6 games to guess-who's Bulls. He averaged 21/10 that year in the playoffs. Not too bad IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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