Do we really need a PG?

[AHF]

On the scarcity side, I just don't understand how anyone can argue that finding PGs is tougher than finding Centers. Just look at the depth at both positions in the NBA; at the depth at both positions in this draft; etc. Centers are much harder to find than point guards. There are a lot of good point guards - few good centers. That means that Cs are more scarce, they are more valuable (for reasons others have mentioned), but much harder to find (meaning greater bust potential as a group).

[Diesel]

Yeah, but there are NO Shaq/Duncan quality big men in this draft...

However, this draft has PGs that will make their teams better!!

[Diesel]

Uhm..

No..

Look at Bogut's assists when he plays against taller teams my friend... OLympics included...

He only passes well when he matches up with a 6'7 C like Bookout!

He won't find those in the pros.

[Diesel]

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That's two more than the number of PG's that have made their teams finals contenders this year.

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So I guess Steve Nash is just doggy Poop..

[chillzatl]

oh I agree completely. I was working while I typed it. When I started out there was a clear point to what I was trying to say. But 30 minutes later I'd been distracted to the point that it ended up being more like a long rambling.

[chillzatl]

and after seeing the way the Spurs have embarassed them, I recant my intitial defense of his MVP selection. I don't think he deserved it at all. While I do think nash is an above average PG, the roster that he plays with has more to do with his performance, IMO, than he does himself. He still is not on the same level as J. Kidd as far as pure PG skills go. He also plays zero defense. Kidd isn't the defender. But he tries and is worlds beyond anything Nash brings on that end of the court.

[PhillyDC]

this is what i was saying when we were arguing about who should be MVP. MVP shouldnt only impact one end of the court and he has very, very good players around him.

[chillzatl]

a lot of my criticism is directed at their team as a whole, and it's not all his fault. It doesn't help them that they are playing the best team in the league in the spurs.

[PhillyDC]

true, spurs are very good, and nash isnt the only suns 'star' that doesnt play D (Amare). Small ball is catching up to them, getting killed on O-boards in the series. I dont think they'll go to the finals with marion at the 4 and amare at the 5. marion or Joe Johnson, or Q will be gone this offseason. with Duncan and KG (he'll be back next year) in the West suns will not make it out of the west. not fair to ask marion to guard duncan.

[Diesel]

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On the scarcity side, I just don't understand how anyone can argue that finding PGs is tougher than finding Centers. Just look at the depth at both positions in the NBA;

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I would argue that because of the lack of Good Centers, that there is not a huge need for one. They are a luxury and definitely hard to find... And more often than not, in trying to find one, there are many BUSTS along the way.

However, look at the Good PGs... While you say that it's easy to find one, recall that we have been looking for how many years now? Also recall that not every draft produces a top quality PG. The last two were Parker/Tinsley and I wouldn't say that they are top quality. I think the year that is similar to this one is 2000(?) with Francis, Davis, Terry, Miller....

[Diesel]

How can you even separate them.. You can't look at a quality PG like Nash and suppose that he is made by who he plays with... He makes them... It's a reciprical relationship... But the effect is stunning when he is out of the game... I thought it was just a matter of wins and losses, but check it for yourself.. Shooting percentages drop...PPG averages drop. Nash makes a helluva difference..

[chillzatl]

sure he makes them better, I don't dispute that. I personally don't think he makes them better to the tune of MVP. But he certainly has a positive impact, to be sure.

Honestly they need to get eliminated so I can sort out my feelings for that team. After seeing the way the spurs have humiliated them, it's damaged my appreciation for Nash and for teh team as a whole. I need a cooling off period so I can re-evaluate them for what they are, not for the sorry performance they've given against the spurs.

[Nicholasp27]

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I would argue that because of the lack of

Good

Centers, that there is not a huge need for one. They are a luxury and definitely hard to find... And more often than not, in trying to find one, there are many BUSTS along the way.

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ur thinking of it backwards...because of the lack of good centers, if you DO have one, you are an instant contender...thus why shaq/duncan teams are so effective, even when shaq is hobbled...

they are not just a luxury...a dominant big man is almost a guarantee of contention...

u are arguing that it is HARD to find a dominant big man...and nobody disagrees with that...it is...so maybe u are saying u don't want to take the risk...but to say that a dominant center isn't better than a dominant pg is a fallacy, at best

[Diesel]

I don't think you can underrate how good the Spurs are also. Again.. You're talking about team play vs. Individual play... YOu must separate the 2.

I think overall, you can't help but see how guards like Nash, Kidd, etc effect their teams.

[Diesel]

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ur thinking of it backwards...because of the lack of good centers, if you DO have one, you are an instant contender...thus why shaq/duncan teams are so effective, even when shaq is hobbled...

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My friend...

I turn your attention to the drafting/FAcy habit of the Golden State Warriors... They have spent many drafts and free agency dollars going after that elusive GOOD Center. Weather it be: Foyle, Dampiere, or Biedrins... They have spent their time trying to get one and it has yet to pay off.

How many Nesterovic's and Potapenko's have to come around before you admit that there probably are not any big men of the quality of Shaq coming out and because of that, why look a gifted PG who can change your team's destiny in the face and pass him by?

[Packfill]

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Outside of Shaq and Duncan... What Big men has made their teams automatic finals material?

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After this year, they will account for 6 of the last 7 championships.

Depending on how you look at last year's pistons team, the last championship team to have a PG carry their team to a title was the 1989 pistons. I don't know about you guys, but it seems to me that the 80s was a long time ago.

Anyhow, we won't be able to get Bogut, but it is clear that if you can get a PG or a C of equal dominance, you take the big man.

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Kidd. Kidd goes to NJ and turns them into a finals candidate.

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He's the best PG in the game, he got swept in the first round. Swept. And that's after a furious comeback in the standings to squeeze into the playoffs. Despite having two all stars with him. Why? Because they ran into a big man and there's no making up for it.

There is no way that happens to Shaq or TD. They won't struggle to make the playoffs. They won't lose in the first round, much less get swept. Even a hobbled Shaq. I can only imagine if they had 2 all stars with them.

You're making my point for me.

KIDD ONLY MADE IT TO THE FINALS WHEN THE EAST HAD NO BIG MEN WHATSOEVER. OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE.

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I don't understand what the debate is about here - if the choice is between a dominant bigman and a dominate point guard you obviously pick the big man, as they are harder to find. The situation the Hawks are in right now however is not making a decision between a dominate big man and a point guard because there are no dominate big men available. Again Bogut is the only one who remotely can be considered a dominate big man but he will not likely be available to the Hawks. As such, there is no dominate big man to choose. Shaq, Duncan or Hakeem are not walking through the Hawks door anytime soon.

Marvin is a wing, not a big man. There is no guarantee he fulfills his enormous potential, and if he does what position he does it at and what that means for Chill and Smoove.

I say pick the point guard in this draft and get the dominate big man next year or through free agency. Last I checked no team led by a dominate wing player has won a championship in recent years except for Michael Jordan's Bulls and Larry Bird's Celtics (Larry did have a hall-of-fame center to help). Similarly only two point guard dominated have won championships in the past 20 years, including Magic Johnson's Lakers and Issiah Thomas' Pistons.

Maybe the morale of the story is you need a hall-of-famer to win a championship - i.e., Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan, Magic, Bird. The statistical outlier is the Piston's from last year.

[Diesel]

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There is no way that happens to Shaq or TD. They won't struggle to make the playoffs. They won't lose in the first round, much less get swept. Even a hobbled Shaq. I can only imagine if they had 2 all stars with them.

You're making my point for me.

KIDD ONLY MADE IT TO THE FINALS WHEN THE EAST HAD NO BIG MEN WHATSOEVER. OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE.

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Obviously... YOU forgot..

The only Big man that has been added since Kidd went to the finals was Shaq and Webber?

The other thing is this... Shaq and Duncan are not a team alone??

Don't you remember the years that Duncan got tossed from the playoffs?

His team was SWEPT by the Lakers..

His team was beaten by the Lakers a second time (while almost losing to the Sonics in the previous series).

His team was beaten by the Lakers one last time...

OK. Now Shaq?

What happen to the Lakers last year. For all practical purposes, they should have been swept... Nobody was injured on the Lakers squad, they just got their butts kicked.

Detroit doesn't have a dominant 7 footer.

[jumpshot]

You don't draft a PG guard with the #2 pick in the draft. We take Bogut or Williams and add a PG later. The last PG who won the MVP in the Championship game was Isiah (1990). Lets get some BIGS!

[Nicholasp27]

so duncan got swept by shaq's lakers?

so the only way to sweep a dominant big man from the playoffs is another dominant big man

and the piston's have defensively dominant bigs

[Packfill]

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You don't draft a PG guard with the #2 pick in the draft. We take Bogut or Williams and add a PG later. The last PG who won the MVP in the Championship game was Isiah (1990). Lets get some BIGS!

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Chauncey Billups was finals MVP last year. He was also the number 3 pick in the draft.