Should we trade down???

[Diesel]

Ha.

Nonesensical?

Let's think about it logically.

Everybody in this draft has question marks and flaws.

If it's possible to get D. Williams when the 5th pick rolls around, I'm all for the trade down. Especially if we don't make a move to get #19.

The bottom line for me is that we are not in the position where we need that one player and regaurdless of what you want to believe neither Williams nor Bogut has seperated themselves from the pack far enough for me to believe that there is no wisdom in trading down and getting 2 good players instead of 1 good player. Especially if we can force Charlotte to give up a prospect too... LIKE Ely.

[Buzzard]

Exactly . . . CBA and emeans. This appears to be a two player draft and we can get one of them. We got two good players last year but if BK could have traded both Josh's to get the 1st or 2nd pick last year, I beleive he would have.

Who cares if we end up with three players 6'8" or 6'9". If all three have starter talent that is a good thing. As far as I am concerned draft the best player you can get and build from that.

This poll proves, as someone already stated, most of us on this board understand that the oppurtunity to take a player at #1 or #2 only comes around once every ten, twenty, thirty years and it should not be squandered reaching for players who are not the concensus (GM's and Scouts) long term starters and possible superstars.

[Packfill]

Quote:

---

Look at Lebron, Dwight Howard, Okefur, Carmelo, and on and on. These guys were projected to be special in the NBA and so far they all are living up to expectations.

If they ALL the GMs, critics, writers say a guy is going to be good, most likely they are going to be good when it is unanimous like that.

---

You made my point for me. Look at Carmelo Anthony (and Darko for that matter) in the 2003 draft. Carmelo is a good player yes, but he is not as good as Dwayne Wade (the number 5 pick) and potentially will not be as good as Bosh (the number 4 pick). In the 2002 draft Amare Stoudamire (no. 9 pick) has turned out to be a better player then the number one pick Yao Ming. Again, a 1 or 2 pick is not a guarantee unless you are talking about Tim Duncan or LeBron James. Marvin and Mogut are not Duncan and James.

[emeans]

Quote:

---

enough for ME to believe

---

Exactly...You said it right... YOU TO BELIEVE and no one else. That is why I am glad you have absolutely no chance of being a GM for any team. All this stuff about Williams not being a Superstar and one of the two prizes of the draft, is in YOUR head and no one elses. Not in any GMs head, not in any writers head, not in any head coaches head.......only in Diesel's head. Please let it stay there.

You said it right in your belief!! No one elses.

[emeans]

I am speaking of guys that the majority of GMs, analysts say are destined for stardum usually are right. Carmelo and Lebron were considered the 2 gems of that draft by MOST if not all experts. Darko was considered good but Darko also had a lot of detractors too because he was from Europe and he was not exposed to the USA. That is why a lot of people in Detroit were shaking their head when they selected him including me. Darko hadn't proven anything against American competition.

For the most part the universally recognized gems of the draft turn out to be pretty good, that is all I am saying and while Carmelo is not a Wade or Lebron, he is still a damn good player. And of course there will be gems all up and down the draft even into the Second Round. That is not what I am debating, all I am saying is for the most part they are right if it is unanimous and it is unanimous with Bogut and Williams!!

Keep the No. 2 pick and get Williams or Bogut....bottom line.

[Diesel]

Yes...

Enough for me to believe because I am sure that I have watched these guys play more than most of the pundits... How can the pundits cover pro games and watch the college games at the same time...

as far as your belief that you have heard from ANY GM... tell me... Which one have you heard from that has praised either Bogut or Williams (especially Williams)... What GM has come out and said... " Williams is the next Jordan"...

The closest thing you have is Rick Majerus.. And until Rick Majerus opened his mouth, do you remember how far M. Williams was down on most draft boards? And you live by the draft board as if it's TRUTH....

The same draft boards presented Olowakandi as #1 overall with no doubt that he would turn out to be the next Shaq.

The same draft boards presented Yao Ming as the future of Basktball.

Point is... I can say that I have watched all of the guys being considered top 5 more than 3 times... Many of the pundits cannot...

[Diesel]

Just like Williams is being hyped, Darko was hyped as the next great player. Nobody cried foul when Darko was selected before Anthony. I like the way you tried to change history to suit your argument... but the truth is that everybody expected 1,2, and 3 to fall the way that it did. Everybody talked about how Darko with his 7-5 wingspan would be the next great big man.

It's laughable.

Herre's an example.

Quote:

---

Darko, the dark-horse pick

The world isn't as big as we like to think it is. Technology has connected us and allows us to travel to places where roads do not exist. In this, the Information Age, we can dial up, log on or access trivia about almost anyone on the planet.

This overabundance of mass media feeds our insatiable appetite for sports and has launched 17-year-old LeBron James into the middle of a national debate.

We know that you can install three televisions into a Hummer H2, that Wes Unseld's throwback jersey is a strangely popular item with the kids and that the sensibilities of adults become warped when children and cash are involved.

But what do we know about Darko Milicic?

Try this one.

He quite possibly is better than James

, the Akron, Ohio, prep basketball prodigy who almost certainly will be the first pick in the upcoming NBA draft.

Of course, that's a biased opinion shared by a few NBA scouts and many Yugoslavians playing in the league who have either heard about or seen their 17-year-old countryman.

But because Milicic's Yugoslavian team, KK Hemofarm, hasn't sold broadcast rights to ESPN2 and CBS hasn't dispatched Deion Sanders overseas for an exclusive one-on-one interview, few in this country are privy to details about the boy wonder. The most detailed reports are sketchy at best because the basketball pipeline to the rest of the world still is being developed.

Who knew about Germany's Dirk Nowitzki before he became Dirk Nowitzki, the Dallas Maverick?

That's the gamble with international players. Choose wisely and you might get Vladimir Radmanovic. One false move, however, and say hello to Vladimir Stepania.

Perhaps that's why Mavericks Coach Don Nelson flew to Belgrade last summer along with his son, Donn, and watched Milicic play. The private viewing resulted in a two-game suspension by the NBA, but it was a penalty worth paying, said the Nelsons.

In absence of conclusive videotape footage, Milicic's reputation is built upon rumors and tales. And if you believe the hype, then he is as good as it gets and beyond comparison to anyone playing in the NBA today.

According to eyewitness, he is either 6 feet 11 or 7-1. His weight is said to hover between 215 and 240 pounds. He is rumored to have deft ballhandling skills for a big man. Some say his shooting range extends to three-point territory. And he's a lefty.

Milicic is so big that he caused the NBA to revise one its most cherished stipulations.

Commissioner David Stern has been pushing for a 20-year-old age limit for years, believing that a league of Kwame Browns and Tyson Chandlers is bad for business.

But there he was last week before the All-Star Game, saying that his league will allow younger players into their game. Essentially, Stern avoided a fight with the NBA Players Association that he wasn't going to win.

If interpreted literally, a rule in the collective bargaining wouldn't allow Milicic to enter the draft because he does not turn 18 before May 12, the deadline to declare for the June 26 draft. Milicic's birthday is June 20.

But Stern amended the rule, which will allow Milicic and another 17-year-old phenom, Greek center Sofaklis Schortsianides, to enter the NBA this summer. Where they will land in the draft, however, is up for debate.

If Milicic played for St. Vincent-St. Mary's high school in Akron, rather than in Vrsac, Yugoslavia, then he might be chosen No. 1.

NBA teams, however, need more assurances than rumors and innuendo.

"I haven't seen him, no one sees him, but we hear things," said Sacramento Kings forward Peja Stojakovic, a native Yugoslavian. "I've heard very good things. Nothing bad at all. ... From what I know about those leagues, he is playing the very best in Europe against grown men who are 25, 30 and 35 years old.

"LeBron is not doing that. He is playing with people his age. ... Milicic is already a professional. There is a difference (playing in the NBA), but he's been a pro for several years."

In a recent interview, Milicic expressed a desire to play in New York and frowned on a career in Cleveland, which currently has the worst record and best chances of securing the top pick.

Clearly, Milicic knows more about the NBA than the NBA knows about him.

---

Quote:

---

Raptors watching Darko saga closely

By BILL HARRIS -- Toronto Sun

Casual Raptors fans might not think the fate of Darko Milicic is important to them. But it is.

Milicic is a 17-year-old, seven-foot basketball phenom from Yugoslavia who is fighting to be declared eligible for the NBA draft in June. If Milicic were in the draft, he likely would be selected in the top three, behind consensus No. 1 pick LeBron James.

---

ESPN draft grades

[Lascar78]

You know damn well Darko was not even close to a concensus pick. Dumars saw him work out and fell in love. I mean read the first line of that article "Darko is the dark horse pick". Nobody would say Bogut or Williams are the dark horse pick. There's a difference beteween a national concensus on a player, and GM's taking big gambles on some players

[Admin]

As much as I hate to say that he is right (as usually he is not)......in this instance he is. I am gonna show you a link to our HawkSquawk mock draft from that year. We were so certain that the 1st 3 picks would go the way that they did that we didnt even give out GM positions for that draft. There was ZERO suspense over them in fact.

http://www.layerfx.com/squawk/mockdraft.asp

[Packfill]

Darko absolutely was the consensus number two pick. He was being refered to as the dark horse candidate for the number one pick.

[Lascar78]

It was a certainty because Joe Dumars pretty much announced it weeks before the draft. He said he happenned to run into him (after the draft lottery), saw him work out, and made up his mind then and there to draft him. And he shared it with the public.

We all knew he would be picked #2 by detroit.

But what I was trying to say is that there was no national concensus that he was the 2nd best player in the draft. Many were already talking about how crazy they were to pass on Melo who had just proven himself in the NCAA tourney, and Wade who had played great also.

[emeans]

Thank you... Darko was not a consensus top pick. This was a case of a GM failing in love with Darko based on some personal workouts.

And like Lascar said look at the article name: "Darko is the DARK HORSE PICK". Nothing else needs to be said.

[Packfill]

Darko absolutely was a consensus top pick. There is no question about that. The article referred to Darko being a dark horse candidate for the number 1 pick.

[Nicholasp27]

immediately everyone questioned dumars for not getting melo...hardly anybody agreed with dumars

darko was consensus #2 because dumars said he'd pick him at #2

if any other team had the #2 pick, darko wouldn't have been the consensus #2

anyway, we don't even know if darko is a bust or a stud because brown won't play him...he's in a jermaine situation, not a kwame one

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Recent quotes on potential draft pick, Darko Milicic

The Word On Darko

“They tried to hold Darko Milicic down in Europe. It didn’t work there – and it’s not going to work here.”

June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“The NBA? The NBA is entertainment. Basketball in Serbia is business.”

Zeljko Lukajic, Head Coach of Hemofarm, Darko Milicic’s premier league team, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“He’s going to own the game. Own the game. We’re going to have to build a new arena. The only thing that could destroy a kid like that is a woman.”

Will Robinson talking about Darko Milicic after seeing him work-out in Detroit, May 30, 2003, ESPN.com

“Milicic grew up in Novi Sad, Serbia’s second-largest city. His dad is a burly cop (“All he’s good for is beating people up,” Darko confessed to my advance people); his mother is a 6’3” cleaning lady. The family is poor – an uncle took them in a few years back, only to kick them into the street in a drunken rage.”

Brett Forrest, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“The last time Hemofarm played Buducnost, in Montenegro, the fans threw cell phones at Milicic. When he dunks early on tonight, it is with reprisal on his face. He doesn’t run like a seven-footer. His flesh and bone are proportioned as though by a knowing hand.”

Brett Forrest, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“His game incorporates vast stores of petulance and impatience. He glares at refs. His shoulders sag when calls don’t go his way. He elbows the opposite center in the throat and tosses the ball at another opponent following a whistle. At times, he stalks the court with a leering grin on his face. It may not be the kind of behavior considered classy around here, but that doesn’t really matter: Darko is about to move on.”

Brett Forrest, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“You can’t teach Darko’s lateral quickness or explosiveness. He needs to get a bit stronger, but not too strong, because that quickness gives him a bigger advantage in the post than more strength ever will.”

Arnie Kander, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“Darko really is one of a kind. He runs the floor, handles the ball, shoots an NBA three and plays with his back to the basket. So you can slot him at the 3, 4 or 5. Okay, a few other guys can do that too; what sets Darko apart is his toughness in the post. You’ve got to love a guy who has the footwork to spin by an opponent but still prefers to lower a shoulder and bang. Fact is, Milicic plays in attack mode at both ends of the floor. The more you push, the more he pushes back.”

Chad Ford, ESPN Insider, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“Darko reminds me of a young Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt used to do a little of everything, and I haven’t seen a big man with so much skill since Wilt.”

Will Robinson, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

“The brothers are going to respect him.”

Brett Forrest regarding Darko Milicic, June 23rd Edition, ESPN the Magazine

"The gap that once existed with international players is gone, and with the position that (Milicic) plays, he's right in line to take a team that's not on the map and put it there," Eastern Conference GM No. 2 said. "But it would be a pretty big test of someone's conviction in the European market."

An Eastern Conference GM, in "No bracketology needed to know who's No. 1" written by Marc Stein, ESPN.com

"Milicic, who turns 18 on June 20, is considered the best big man in the draft - with the skills to score inside and out - and comes out of the Yugoslavia professional league where most players are in their mid-20s."

MSNBC.com

“I played against older guys, experienced guys,” he said through a translator. “They would pinch me and try to hide the ball from me. I would chop them.”

Darko Milicic, MSNBC.com

"He practices six hours per day with Hemofarm and performs against men nearly twice his age in front of a steady stream of NBA personnel evaluators, who have made Vrsac a regular stop. He is 7-0, 245, a lefthander with a reliable deep stroke and an impressive variety of moves that draw comparisons with Kevin Garnett’s. Milicic has averaged 23.5 minutes, 13.6 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.6 blocks for Hemofarm this season."

Sean Deveney, The Sporting News

"A good team is about to get better."

Associated Press, SportsIllustrated.com

“We’ve known about him for a couple of years,” NBA scout Ryan Blake said. “He’s a talented big guy with inside-outside capabilities. He’s left-handed and can play small forward. He has great footwork and solid athletic skills. He’s got range but he can get to the basket. I think you’ll see him a little more inside.”

Associated Press, MSNBC.com

“He’s a talented scorer and rebounder and can pass the ball”

New York Knicks general manager Scott Layden, Associated Press MSNBC.com

---

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

immediately everyone questioned dumars for not getting melo...hardly anybody agreed with dumars

---

Please show me an example Nick? It sounds like revisionist History going on here... Everybody was in agreement with Dumars...

Quote:

---

Draft leaves Pistons stacked

29th June, 2003 - 8:10 am

Detroit News - With a successful draft under his belt, graded as best in the league by several media sites, Pistons President Joe Dumars now looks to the free-agent season.

It probably will feel like a mini-vacation.

---

#1

Quote:

---

Taking Milicic was the Draft's second no-brainer: a skilled 7-footer who can develop for a couple of years before taking the starting spot and allowing Ben Wallace to play his natural power forward spot.

---

#2

Quote:

---

Detroit Pistons

Round 1: Darko Milicic, F, Serbia-Montenegro (No. 2)

Round 1: Carlos Delfino, G, Italy (No. 25)

Round 2: Andres Gliniadakis, C, Greece (No. 58)

How many teams with the best record in their conference end up with the best big man in the draft and a draft-night steal in Carlos Delfino? By now, you know about Darko, but Delfino will also be important down the road. He's tough, a strong shooter and plays aggressive defense. He reminds me a lot of Michael Finley. He could play an immediate role on the Pistons if he stays here next year. Gliniadakis was a nice pickup at the end of the draft. He's a 7-footer who can actually play. The Pistons will leave him in Greece for a few years and bring him over when he's ready.

Grade: A+

---

The interesting thing to me about the grades... Both Cleveland and Denver recieved A- while Detroit got an A+...

#3

Quote:

---

Given their need for help in the frontcourt, it’s hard to argue with Joe Dumars for taking Milicic over Anthony. If he is as good as advertised, the Pistons could be in the NBA Finals next season. Delfino, meanwhile, could be another Manu Ginobili when he finally gets to the NBA -- probably after next season.

---

#4

Quote:

---

Pistons brass have to be chuckling after this one. First they land a franchise talent, Darko Milicic, with a stroke of luck in the lottery. Next they land probably the biggest sleeper in the entire draft Carlos Delfino. Michael Pietrus was wildly hyped and went much higher than he should have while a player like Carlos Delfino falls to the 25th pick. Delfino will be twice the NBA player that Mickael Pietrus will. The Pistons will hope their second round pick is a late bloomer. The word on him has been potential for a long time, but he hasn't shown much development over the past few seasons. He is a good long term gamble.

---

[emeans]

Okay guys...all of this is a matter of perception. The bottom line is that Williams and Bogut are considered the class of this draft. The two can't miss players in this draft by most if not all critics. In a lot of peoples mind that wasn't the case with Darko. Some of you think that was the case, I personally didn't think so along with a lot of other people. So this is a matter of what you perceived by the media, etc.

Bottom line. I think BK is going to keep this pick and draft either Williams or Bogut. He is probably going to KEEP Al and try and move up in the bottom of the 1st round with maybe a trade with Diaw/2nd round pick. Al and this 2nd pick are staying with the Hawks people!!

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Some of you think that was the case, I personally didn't think so along with a lot of other people. So this is a matter of what you perceived by the media, etc.

---

So the fact that I used the Pundits to show you that it was a consensus that Darko was #2... Means little to you.... Let's poll the people shall we?

KB's take.. Back then

Chillz Take... Back then.

Chillz, DJMoney, and GreyMule's take... It's Darko!

Diesel's call.

Anyway.. The same pundits that you discredit from 2 yrs ago are the same pundits that you are willing to believe wholeheartedly now...

Ironic Huh?

[emeans]

Maybe you chose to not read what Lascar said. Dumars publicly showed his cards in the media, so of course everyone knew in Mock drafts who was going to be picked No. 2 or where they were leaning.

The point you need to understand is that there were skeptics of Darko being a consensus 1 or 2 pick by some of the national media, writers, etc.. Yes, there was media who said he should be the one of those 2 picks, but that is not my point. The point is there were both sides of the argument when concerning Darko and his sure-fire success in the NBA. Even the article you posted had some questions about him being a top pick.

Here the catch.....That is not the case with Williams and Bogut. There are no doubts with anyone, except YOU, as to who are the top 2 players of this class. You are not comparing apples to apples!!

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

The point you need to understand is that there were skeptics of Darko being a consensus 1 or 2 pick by some of the national media, writers, etc..

---

I find you links to:

Marty Burns, Sean Dunleavy, Chad Ford, the guy at Draft City, some guy at inside hoops...

I ask you to find 2 of these media guys who wrote about being skeptic about Darko...

Marty Burns said It's hard to argue with Dumar's choice of Darko over Anthony...

Sure Dumars may have put it out that he was going to pick Darko... But that doesn't mean that people couldn't be skeptical... Why is it that everyone agreed that Darko is the man. Why does a simple google search not show one person back in 2003 who felt like Joe was making a mistake or made a mistake?

AND...

If you feel that the media can be so easily manipulated by the appearance of somebody set on taking a guy... Even so much so that they would not call foul... Why are you so eager to take their word on Bogut and Williams. Let's face it, the only reason M. Williams is being hype as top 2 is because he got the seal of approval from Majerus. If you believe that the media will hold their tongue and not disapprove of Darko (some even crowning him the best big man in that draft; poor Bosh) Then what makes you think that they are not holding their tongues now?