JWill and defense

[mrhonline]

All the talk of trading for Jason Williams, but no one mentions the fact that:

When Jason Williams was in the game for Memphis last season, the Grizz gave up an average of 106.7 pts/100 possessions.

When he sat his butt on the bench, the Grizz gave up an average of 101.4 pts/100 poss.

That's a *significant* defensive liability.

In fact, he's +/- shows that Memphis has actually played better with him on the bench for at least the last two seasons.

No wonder they're trying to ditch him onto another team.

[Packfill]

That is exactly why Jerry West is trying to get rid of him - he realizes that JWill has no value in the playoffs.

[Diesel]

You have to determine is it because of his defense or is it because of the tempo?

Was there a change in the points that Memphis got when he was on the bench and when he was in the game?

[mrhonline]

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You have to determine is it because of his defense or is it because of the tempo?

Was there a change in the points that Memphis got when he was on the bench and when he was in the game?

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Context certainly matters. But, in this case, it doesn't help Williams' case. Why? Because he plays with the starters. He also gets substituted for Earl Watson often in the 4th quarter for defensive reasons.

Also, Battier, Miller, Watson, Cardinal, and Gasol all had positive +/- for the Grizzlies. Williams stands out as being a regular player that didn't help the team overall (Swift and Wells as well).

He did account for a better offensive output when he was on the floor than when he was off, but his (lack of) defense more than negated that output:

On Court: 108.1 scored / 106.7 allowed

Off Court: 105.2 scored / 101.4 allowed

Net: +1.3 scored / +3.8 allowed

That equates to a net loss of 2.4 pts./100 possessions.

Williams might be a useful player on the right team, but at the cost of 3 yrs., $25M on a "just started rebuilding" team, I would pass.

[Diesel]

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e did account for a better offensive output when he was on the floor than when he was off, but his (lack of) defense more than negated that output:

On Court: 108.1 scored / 106.7 allowed

Off Court: 105.2 scored / 101.4 allowed

Net: +1.3 scored / +3.8 allowed

That equates to a net loss of 2.4 pts./100 possessions.

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The point...

2.4 pts. Roughly.. 1 bucket. IN 100 possessions, teams increased their offensive output by 1 bucket.

The point is that yes, J-Will has his shortcomings on defense. He's not a perfect defender and I wouldn't consider him close. And you're right.. His counterpart does play better defense (that 1 bucket is an interesting case too; often times, J-Will was substittuted in the 4th qtr so both teams were a little more tired and coaches who made adjustments).. but all that aside...

J-Will is a good offensive player. How many teams could get 108.1 ppg.... Phoenix as a team only put up 110.4 ppg...

[mrhonline]

(Sorry, I've decided not to bother arguing the math with you because it will be a lost cause. I have a tree in the back yard I would have a better chance with).

However, I will point out that the Grizz managed to score 106.2 ppg with the "offensively-challenged" Earl Watson at the point.

The difference? Watson's Grizz only allowed 100.8 pts/100 possessions.

Say no to JWill.

[mrhonline]

Oh, and BTW, I found it interesting that in the Memphis paper the same three Grizz I mentioned above are not drawing much interest from GM's:

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"The Griz also have shopped Williams. A survey among several prominent general managers didn't paint a pretty picture with regard to the value of Wells, Swift and Williams.

The consensus is that the volatile Williams will return because there are three years remaining on a contract that pays $7.5 million for the 2005-06 season

, Wells (given that the Griz won't pick up an $8 million option) will only receive offers starting at the mid-level exception, and sign Swift for more than three years and at far less ($5-6 million) than the $10 million he's seeking."

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[Diesel]

That's why they should give a first rounder to the team that takes him!

[DominiqueWilkins]

I can see why Jerry West would want to get rid of him, due to money, and defense. I'd still gladly take him off the Grizzles hands, if they are willing to throw their first round pick in.

I think Jason Williams would make a good fit for the Hawks.

[cyman3]

he has 2 years left on his contract right? which means that we'll atleast get his 100% effort (on both ends) for his 2nd year (CONTRACT YEAR).

as for the 1st year, if we are solid defensively at all positions we will be ok. i mean, Phoenix managed to do well despite Nash's defense... right?

Josh Childress and Josh Smith are good defenders. If we can get good defenders at the PF + C positions, then i dont think its that big of a deal... having a "liable" defensive player at the PG position.

*this is assuming we get the pick to go along with Williams.

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also, if we can somehow land a good PG in this draft. maybe we wouldnt have to be so desperate for a starting PG?

no offense, but LUE is backup PG material in this league.

[mrhonline]

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he has 2 years left on his contract right? which means that we'll atleast get his 100% effort (on both ends) for his 2nd year (CONTRACT YEAR).

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No, he's on the books for 3 more years.

JWill is just an average PG at best. He's a liability on defense and has questionable shot selection on offense.

What he provides on offense is more than outweighed by those two concerns, his age (30 in Nov.), and his contract.

Lue maybe a backup, but is JWill really that much better at this stage in his career?

Per48's -->

Lue: 19/8, 36% from three

JWill: 18/10, 33% from three

Why is JWill worth 3 yrs., $25M? He's overpaid, not a Woodson style player, and doesn't fit into the "rebuilding through the draft" plans.

And a late 1st rounder isn't going to change those three things. You don't take on $25M in contracts just to land the #19 pick. Top5, sure. But not the #19.

(Jaywalker, where are you? Can you PLEASE come explain the concept of replacement value? This board seems to have forgotten the nasty contracts of Theo, SAR, GRob, etc. We're already wanting a QUICK FIX).

[TheDude]

people, we're talking two years (he'll be tradeable because of expiring contract after that) of having a much better point than what we have now (yes he's not allworld but he's still better) with the added benefit of using the pick we got (from getting him) to develop a point to replace him. Sounds like the perfect long term plan to me. Give the fans some excitement while developing a point that will be good about the time the whole team is starting to be real good.

and we can afford it and still get the necessary free agents.

[mrhonline]

He's a better, flashier passer and a more dangerous scorer than Lue. That's it.

He doesn't play better defense, doesn't have a team-first attitude (not necessarily a bad guy, but not a rebuilding team type of guy), doesn't have good shot selection, doesn't help his team win in the 4th quarter, isn't cheap, and isn't young.

Why waste 2.5 years (you couldn't trade him until the trading deadline) on that? I'd rather what a young PG struggle mightily than put up with that. Sign Stoudamire if you want a mediocre, vet point.

Williams would do nothing but makes this team mediocre. I've been through enough of that already.

[tmac13]

He is MUCH better than Lue..Lue is a mediocre backup at best..His only claim to fame is playing thug defense against Allen Iverson in the finals a few years back..That is it..That got him a nice contract with Jordan and the Wizzards where he promptly became a bust ..He is a bad passer for a point..JWil, on the otherhand is not good defensively, but his passing ability might help the growth of our young atheletic slashers..

[f_town]

Lue is a good part of the reason we had whatever second half of the season victories we had...

he at least has some of the heart that J Will lacked to get him pulled from the 4th in all those games

J Will isnt worth the dough

we can do better

some how

[CBAreject]

How is Lue a BUST? He's never really underachieved. A BUST has to fall drastically short of expectations. If the Wiz expected him to come in and put up 15 ppg and 8 apg, they weren't paying any attention to his career stats. Now that he's finally gotten some substantial playing time, he's showing that he can be an effective player.

He'll never be great, but I think he's valuable enough to keep around. I don't want white chocolate on this team. I don't trust his attitude around our young players.

[tmac13]

Lue was a bust in Washington..He was a major disapointment for them..He was okay in Orlando, another awful team just like us last year.The Hawks didn't expect anything from him so he was a pleasant surprise.

[Diesel]

I have to question this one thing:

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He doesn't play better defense, doesn't have a team-first attitude (not necessarily a bad guy, but not a rebuilding team type of guy),

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I have to question that....

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You think Memphis and its coach, Hubie Brown, miss Jason Williams right now?

Consider this: The Grizzlies are two years removed from being one of the worst road teams in the league. They showed up in your gym, and you had an automatic W. Wednesday, Memphis surged to a 13-point fourth quarter lead, but with Williams on the bench in street clothes with back spasms, the Grizzlies had no leadership down the stretch, turning the ball over at an alarming rate and letting the Nets crawl back into the game. But floundering New Jersey collapsed in the final 90 seconds, and Memphis escaped from the Meadowlands with a victory.

Brown, at 69 an artifact of NBA days harking back to high socks, precise shooting, and no teenagers, gushed afterward about how much he misses his new buddy, Williams, who epitomizes the new generation of ballers with the diamond in his ear and a plethora of tattoos.

"We really miss Jason, he's so difficult to defend down the stretch," Brown said, wiping his receding hairline. "He's so quick. There are very few guys in this league as quick as Jason from circle to circle. Not only his quickness, but in the final three minutes of games, he's one of the best shooters in this league."

Surprised?

Don't be.

Williams, 28, was once regarded as an out-of-control hotdog with a penchant for bad shots and poor decisions in the clutch. Those are the primary reasons he was traded from a contender (Sacramento) to a pretender (Memphis) in 2001.

In his three years in Graceland, however, Williams' turnovers are down, and his assists and shooting have skyrocketed. Williams is sixth in the NBA in assists (7.1 apg), and third in assist to turnover ratio (4.42), but more importantly, tops among starting NBA point guards. Assist to turnover ratio is perhaps the most significant statistic for point guards.

How has he pulled of the sudden turnaround?

Lorenzen Wright, who has seen Williams' ups and downs, credits Brown.

"Jason's settled down a little bit at the offense end," Wright said. "He's not as big a chance-taker. Hubie has turned everything around for us, and for Jason. We're playing defense better, and it starts with the coach. We can't wait to get Jason back."

Brown is the one most frequently sighted for the change. But Williams cites his young son, Jaxon, as a major reason for maturity.

"He's got something to do with it," Williams said between bites of pizza in the locker room - courtesy of Wright - after the win over the Nets. "I guess I may have calmed down a little. Like after games, instead of hanging around, bullshitting with the guys, I'm just real anxious to get home and see him and my family."

Williams, who favors the short spikey hair and has the looks of a boy band member, said he's definitely not a party animal, and he never was.

"I've never had a sip of beer, you can put that down," he said. "I just don't like the taste."

No alcohol at all?

"Well, I had liquor before, but you know, only at special occasions and stuff," he said in his West Virginia twang.

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I think that some of the problem has been with Fratello and hi dislike for J-Will. Hubie loeved J-Will and Memphis were a better team because of it.

[TheDude]

i think jwill gets too much of a bad rap. he isn't an olay defender, although it isn't great either. he isn't a me first passer, although he isn't jason kidd. he played extremely well under hubie brown. as diesel's article states, they struggled when he was down.

you guys act like he's the same as Lue. if he was the same as Lue, you think he'd be the starting point on a playoff team? Jason Williams has skills and especially his passing. His negatives is that he gets caught up in the game and sometimes tries to do too much, like make a fancy pass or shoot a bad shot. But he's still much better than what we have.

and you're not going to get that point most likely (with the #19) unless we accept him. so in many ways it's either both or neither.

[mrhonline]

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he played extremely well under hubie brown. as diesel's article states, they struggled when he was down.

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Most people would play better under Hubie. I'm skeptical he would play so well under Woodson.

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you guys act like he's the same as Lue.

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No, he's definitely better than Lue. But only marginally so and much more expensive in the long run.

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and you're not going to get that point most likely (with the #19) unless we accept him. so in many ways it's either both or neither.

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Understood, and I would rather have neither.

The Hawks have two picks again next year, so there's no need to take on that big contract.

Knight could probably trade Diaw to get a similar pick without having to take on a bad contract.