Diesel, you've convinced me.

[swolehawk2]

For Starters Boheim has won 3 championships.... What?"Regaurdless of what you saw in a pickup game"Just what I have seen and the fact that Ray and May...said he was the most talented player on that team.......guess what... they balled with him everyday ...you watched the champioship game...and has deemed yourself the know all about Marvin's inner feelings...and whether he thinks about the smurfs before he dives for a loose ball.

[swolehawk2]

"I think Marvin's got superstar potential," one Eastern Conference executive said on condition of anonymity. "If you look at his stats, if he had played as much as the other guys, he probably would've been the leading scorer on the squad, the leading rebounder."

[swolehawk2]

May reveled in the lesson when Williams started practice one day by asking who was the best player on the 2004 NBA champion Detroit Pistons. Everybody had a different answer: Rip Hamilton! Rasheed Wallace! Chauncey Billups! So Williams popped in a 10-minute clip of the Pistons that proved every answer wrong. "He just said, 'You can't tell who the best player is because they don't care! Everyone just plays together,' " May recalls. "And that's the epitome of a team: They are a team! They don't have one superstar, and no one shines. It's all about, 'Let's get a win!'

[Final_quest]

You got to be kidding Chillz. No GM would draft McGrady over Marvin? My take on the draft this year is that it was not a top heavy draft. It was a deep draft. I hope Marvin is the top player out of this draft, but if a GM had a choice to take the sure thing in McGrady he would have. Personally I would not be surprised if the best player in this draft was a mid or late first round pick. I think Marvin got the reputation of most likely to become a superstar, but it's gonna be a waiting game.

[AHF]

Top North Carolina players and their freshmen scoring averages per 40 minutes:

Marvin Williams (2004-05) 20.35

Antawn Jamison (1995-96) 18.40

Rasheed Wallace (1993-94) 18.20

James Worthy (1979-80) 17.68

Michael Jordan (1981-82) 17.05

Vince Carter (1995-96) 16.72

Free throw percentage

FT FTA FT Pct.

Marvin Williams (2004-05) 138 163 84.7%

Michael Jordan (1981-82) 78 108 72.2%

Vince Carter (1995-96) 31 45 68.9%

Rasheed Wallace (1993-94) 55 91 60.4%

James Worthy (1979-80) 27 45 60.0%

Antawn Jamison (1995-96) 82 156 52.6%

Points per field goal attempt

Pts. FGA Pts./FGA

Marvin Williams (2004-05) 407 247 1.65

Antawn Jamison (1995-96) 484 322 1.50

Rasheed Wallace (1993-94) 333 230 1.45

James Worthy (1979-80) 175 126 1.39

Michael Jordan (1981-82) 460 358 1.28

Vince Carter (1995-96) 232 185 1.25

Quote:

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May admitted that Williams was without a doubt the most talented player on a team that could yield four high first-round picks Tuesday — Williams, May, point guard Raymond Felton and shooting guard Rashad McCants, and a fifth in the second round, senior forward Jawad Williams, who started in front of Marvin Williams.

"He's scary," May said of Marvin Williams. "I'm telling you. The kid's good."

---

I question Sean May's competitiveness. He should not have admitted that a timid freshman who can't compete was more talented than him without a doubt. Do you remember Jordan making those kinds of comments?

[chillzatl]

I said you cannot CAN NOT compare who he is now with who marvin is now. You have to completely wipe his entire NBA career from your mind. He is nothing more than a touted highschool prospect. On the other hand, you have Marvin, a freshman star at UNC that just won the NCAA title. Again, yes, Marvin would be drafted ahead of THAT Tracy Mcgrady 10 times out of 10.The point was that Diesel can't compare an NBA player that is a proven commodity, though one with questionable heart, to a guy that has not yet had an opportunity to prove himself in the pro's and ask a question like "so you would draft marvin over T-mac".

[AHF]

If I am drafting a player's mental state (because that is what we are talking about with TMac and Marvin) then I would draft Marvin 100 times over TMac without thinking twice. Players like Jordan, Bird, Ben Wallace, are some of the top mental players (IQ, maturity, work ethic, competitiveness, etc.) of the last 20 years and I'd be happy to infuse any player with their mental approach to the game. The question at issue is mental state. That is why TMac was brought into this discussion - as an example of someone with a desireable mental state of competitiveness. I'll take Marvin's mental state over McGrady's anyday.(If you want to start mixing physical potential with mental state, I don't understand the point of the question because who cares if Ben Wallace is more competitive than Tim Duncan or if Wallace is more competitive than Charles Barkley. You still draft the more talented Duncan and Barkley but that doesn't say much about their relative status as competitors).

[Diesel]

What...He won one with DC.He won one with Otis.He won one with Mello...

[Diesel]

Quote:

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The point was that Diesel can't compare an NBA player that is a proven commodity, though one with questionable heart, to a guy that has not yet had an opportunity to prove himself in the pro's and ask a question like "so you would draft marvin over T-mac".

---

First off, the question I asked was "So you would take Marvin over T-Mac?"Secondly, I didn't introduce the comparison... Somebody else did and you agreed... You guys were not talking about a draft Choice T-Mac, you were talking about the T-Mac we all know and love... Specifically the T-Mac of 2 years ago. You know.. After he single handedly carried the Magic to the Playoffs and averaged 50 per... You guys brought that T-Mac into the conversation...So I asked the next question...Would you take Marvin Over T-mac??Stop trying to go back into time with your comparison...The answer is obvious that no one in their right mind would trade today's Tmac for Marvin Williams... If they would, T-mac would be a Hawk right now...

[swolehawk2]

What?

[Final_quest]

I get what your saying Chillz, but two problems. 1. Just last year the stars of the national champion Gordon and Okafor were passed over for a high school prospect in the draft.2. To say that Marvin was a star on that team is a stretch. Marvin was drafted more on potential than from being a star in college. Diesel, you're just wrong about Syracuse. The Melo title was their first with Boeheim.

[Lascar78]

Wrong, wrong, wrong again. Boeheim has only won 1 NCAA championship, and it was with Carmelo.Let's see you try to tell us you didn't mean NCAA championships now... lol

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Players like Jordan, Bird, Ben Wallace, are some of the top mental players (IQ, maturity, work ethic, competitiveness, etc.) of the last 20 years and I'd be happy to infuse any player with their mental approach to the game.

---

First off, the most important thing is competitiveness. Marvin doesn't exhibit that. All those guys that you mentioned were ultra competitive. wanting to win and wanting to play regaurdless of what happened...

Quote:

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ordan wasn't born a star, the player of whom Larry Bird said, "It's just God disguised as Michael Jordan." Jordan couldn't even make the varsity as a sophomore at Laney High School in Wilmington, N.C.

"It was embarrassing not making that team," said the owner of two Olympic gold medals. "They posted the roster and it was there for a long, long time without my name on it. I remember being really mad, too, because there was a guy who made it that really wasn't as good as me."

Instead of pouting or making excuses over failure, Jordan uses it to spur him to greater achievement. For that alone youngsters should want to "Be Like Mike."

Jordan made himself into a megastar. His burning desire to win, his utter refusal to quit, his desire to carry his team to the mountaintop made him a legend in his time.

"Whenever I was working out and got tired and figured I ought to stop, I'd close my eyes and see that list in the locker room without my name on it," Jordan said, "and that usually got me going again."

Lead the Bulls to one NBA championship and he wanted a second. Win five rings and he wanted a sixth. He didn't know when to stop. In a world where so many people are satisfied with themselves, the 6-foot-6 Jordan was always pushing, pushing, pushing, both himself and his teammates.

Listen to two people who knew him before he was famous. There's Ruby Sutton, phys ed teacher at Laney: "He never wanted to lose in anything. That was in-born into him. I normally get to school between 7 and 7:30. Michael would be at school before I would. Every time I'd come in and open these doors, I'd hear the basketball. Fall, wintertime, summertime. Most mornings I had to run Michael out of the gym."

Said Fred Lynch, then assistant coach, now head coach at Laney: "More than anything, he was a sore loser. Just playing pickup games. He'd get on his teammates all the time. He hasn't changed that. What he always expected was everybody play the game as hard as he played it."

While many have played sports hard, few have ever combined such desire with skill and grace under pressure. Probably no player in the history of basketball has ever stuck so many significant shots as Jordan. Think of how many times that Jordan -- literally and figuratively -- has risen to the occasion.

---

Quote:

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After Michael starred on the junior varsity basketball as a high school sophomore, he made the varsity his final two years. After averaging 27.1 points as a senior, he enrolled at North Carolina.

Jordan was the College Player of the Year in 1984.

He started as a freshman, a rarity for a Dean Smith team. His shot against Georgetown boosted his confidence, and the next two seasons he was a first-team All-American -- and was College Player of the Year in 1984. Leaving college after his junior season, he was the third pick in the 1984 draft after Akeem Olajuwon by Houston and Sam Bowie by Portland.

Bulls general manager Rod Thorn didn't think Jordan was a franchise player. "He is a very good offensive player," Thorn said, "but he's not an overpowering offensive player."

---

I don't see that kind of desire streaming from Marvin... It's insulting to list him with Jordan and Bird...

[Diesel]

I thought Syracuse won a championship with Coleman and Douglass.I thought they won one with Otis Smith(?) or Hill (?).. "When the Cuse is in da House"...What was that?

[drzachary]

Quote:

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What...

He won one with DC.

He won one with Otis.

He won one with Mello...

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No. That's just wrong. Unless you think going to the Final Four is the same as winning a championship.... in which case Roy is FAR better!

[drzachary]

Otis Hill and pals lost to that unstoppable '96 UK team. I thought you were a UK fan.The DC team lost to Indiana, but I had to Google that.

[swolehawk2]

Hey man, can't you see that you are sometimes blinded with the fact that you think you have to be right....you were so sure that you were right ....that ....you posted wrong sht TWICE....didn't even bother to check....I love it....you are definately a character.....don't get me wrong this is not to offend you....I like the passion.....it is actually fascinating......LOLBy the way, I think he went to three championship games and won one.

[drzachary]

Quote:

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I love it....you are definately a character.....don't get me wrong this is not to offend you....I like the passion.....it is actually fascinating......LOL

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I second that emotion! The blitzkrieg, the vendettas, the constant use of the third person -- Diesel is better than cable TV! (That should be a quote in his sig.)

[chillzatl]

and get it right. YOU are the one who used T-mac as some sort of bellweather for competitiveness. The same T-mac that packed his nuts up in a silk purse and QUIT ON HIS TEAM. The same T-mac that cried to the media about not being able to handle 'being the man'. Someone then pointed that out to you and you asked "would you take T-mac over Marvin".It'a a stupid comparison to make, period. You can't realistically ask someone to take an unproven player over a near league scoring champion. Despite the fact that he has the sack of a chihuahua. Don't make idiotic comparisons to cover up your own lack of consistancy in your arguements.

[chillzatl]

Mcgrady went 9th in his draft. Marvin would have gone before him. He was a star as far as the media was concerned. His stats also back it up.