Are the Hawks "dampiering" Curry?

[Final_quest]

Chillz man, it's strange to me that you give Kwame the benefit of the doubt, but with Curry you doubt that he will be on par with what he's averaged the past couple years.

At 22 I would expect for Curry to improve. I think you're making a big assumption that he's gonna go downhill when he signs his contract. And a 2nd bad assumption that Kwame just needs a change of scenery.

I would rather put my money on the guy who has put up the stats over two seasons than a guy who has never been able to put up good stats.

My point still stands that a team is willing to take a chance on a center that has had Curry's numbers, regardless. Look at how many chances Vin Baker has gotten.

[chillzatl]

I'm not making any assumptions about what he will or will not do. I'm also not giving Kwame the benefit of the doubt about anything. I'm speaking only from the logical perspective of why a team would sign Kwame and pass on Curry, given the situations we've been discussing.

I did not assume or expect Curry to go downhill. But you said the contract we offered him was a "safe bet". Basically meaning if he doesn't work out with us, that his contract makes him tradeable. But when you say "doesn't work out", I clearly take that to mean if he doesn't produce. I can't envision any other situation. But the only way I can see him not producing for us, is if he gets fat and lazy. If that happens, NOBODY is going to take another chance on him. Any team that did that would be looking at taking on a guy who despite vocal worry about his desire and conditioning, STILL took a big contract and got fat and lazy. nobdoy is going to view this as a "change of scenery" case. THey're going to look at it as a "fat lazy guy" case and break for the door.

Kwame on the otherhand. I've been very vocal in not liking teh guy. I don't like the puss mentality he's shown. The kid has been given the opportunity of a lifetime and he doesn't have the mental toughness to make anything out of it. That disgusts me. But that said, I recognize that the kid has innate talent. I'm also not the only one to recognize this. Most "experts" feel that all he nees is a change of scenery. Just get him out of washington, away from those fans and the expectations that MJ built up around him, and he'll be fine. That is clearly why L.A made the trade for him. But be realistic, this is the last chance for him as well. If he can't hang in L.A., his career will be over.

So that's where we are. I'm not predicting doom for Curry or giving Kwame some benefit of the doubt. I'm just calling it the way I think it would be logically seen. Curry, by many experts opinions is a gamble RIGHT NOW. If he comes here, gets fat and fails to produce, nobody will take a chance on him. Kwame, on the other hand, hasn't had that 2nd chance. Now that he has it, if he fails again, he too will be done.

[Final_quest]

I see what you're saying Chillz.

Although I disagree on the tendency for this league to give 3rd and 4th chances to big men who have shown a glimpse of potential: Vin Baker, Alonzo Mourning, Juwan Howard, Antonio McDyess among others.

Mourning had huge question marks concerning his health, and had teams lining up to pay him a ridiculous contract. Vin Baker proven to be a drunk many times over- teams still want to give him a payday.

I promise you the contract from this original post is only untradeable if Curry's heart goes kaput.

[Buzzard]

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So that's where we are. I'm not predicting doom for Curry or giving Kwame some benefit of the doubt. I'm just calling it the way I think it would be logically seen. Curry, by many experts opinions is a gamble RIGHT NOW. If he comes here, gets fat and fails to produce, nobody will take a chance on him. Kwame, on the other hand, hasn't had that 2nd chance. Now that he has it, if he fails again, he too will be done.

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I am taking this as you see both Curry and Kwame are both gambles. I agree with this but do beleive Curry is the lowest risk. He was ok'd by his doctors and if he is ok'd by the Hawks doctors, then the gamble is much lower.

Curry has proven in much longer stretches of games that he belongs in this league. Kwame on the other hand has had a much tougher time putting together any more than two or three good games in a row.

If Curry scores as well a he has proven and his medical condition is cleared, he will be a tradeable comodity even if he does not mix well with our players or proves to be lazy.

Scoring from the center position is a lot harder to come by than boards and there will always be a market for it. Other words, this will not be Curry's last chance. If his only issue is being lazy (not health related), there will be some GM out there willing to take a chance on him. More so than Kwame, who really has not shown anyone squat since being drafted. At least that is what I think.

[Packfill]

Even if Curry exceeds expectations and say averages 17 points and 7 rebounds a game - does he really bring anything to the table that Al Harrington doesn't? I mean, Al is not a great rebounder, shot blocker or defender. Neither is Curry - and you could argue Al is the better rebounder and defender just based on more effort. Al is certaintly the better person.

Curry is definitely bigger and is more of a center, but he does not play as big as he is and would leave the Hawks with the same defense shortcomings that they currently have. So in that sense I do not see how the acquisition helps the Hawks.

[chillzatl]

Mourning really only got one chance after his initial retirement. NJ gave him a chance and he didn't work out. After that he was basically traded to Toronto as filler in the vince carter traid and wavied. I don't consider the miami thing to really be a "Chance" as they didn't pay him anything and had the mindset that if they got any production at all from him, it was better than what they had. Plus it was part of the veteren leadership thing.

Baker really only got a 2nd chance, which I consider to be the Celtics. They knowinngly took a chance on him and he failed. They voided his contract due to the substance abuse clause they had. Since then he has drifted around as veteren bench filler for the Knicks and Houston, playing at the vet minimum.

I don't really consider either of those situations as good examples of a big man failing and still good having trade value. I'm sure we COULD trade him. But we're not going to get anything close to what we put into him. It's impossible to consider that a win situation for us.

[chillzatl]

if he comes here nad bombs, his trade value will be a negative for us. If he blows up, gets fat and his production drops, we will NOT move him. You can basically forget it. Unless it's a crap for crap deal. If he just doesn't fit in here, sure we'll have takers. But we're not going to equal value. There's no way to consider it a winning situation for us if that happens.

[Admin]

He brings an extra 2" and 35 lbs while being 2.5 years younger than Al. I like Al as much as anyone and feel that he is greatly underappreciate for the things that he brings, not to mention that he is one of the best low post scorers in the game with his variety of moves down there. However, if you can get younger and bigger for the same price, you gotta do it. If we could somehow keep Al and sign Curry, that would be great, but I doubt we will get Curry without sacrificing Al.

Also, Curry does have the ability to put up 25ppg due to being the most unguardable C in the game not named Shaq, whereas I dont think Al could ever reach that plateau.

[mrhonline]

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However, if you can get younger and bigger

for the same price

, you gotta do it.

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That's the key right there - the pricetag.

It will be an interesting end to the month of July, no doubt.

[chillzatl]

Curry still has a lot of room to improve. Al is a little more capped out. Curry could potentially be a 20+ppg scorer in this league. 20+ppg coming from the deep post is going to have a much larger impact on the team dynamic than 20ppg coming from Al. Plus Curry is still young, he could become a better rebounder and defender. While Al is young, he's a little more developed and a little more set in being the player that he is.

[Buzzard]

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Even if Curry exceeds expectations and say averages 17 points and 7 rebounds a game - does he really bring anything to the table that Al Harrington doesn't? I mean, Al is not a great rebounder, shot blocker or defender. Neither is Curry - and you could argue Al is the better rebounder and defender just based on more effort. Al is certaintly the better person.

Curry is definitely bigger and is more of a center, but he does not play as big as he is and would leave the Hawks with the same defense shortcomings that they currently have. So in that sense I do not see how the acquisition helps the Hawks.

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As much as some people knock bk's philosophy on postions, I have never heard him say we do not need a talented player with heighth. Given that Harrington, Childress, MWill, and Smoove are all under 6' 10" it makes perfect sense for us to try and grab a player who is over 6 10".

I don't think he needs to be a great shot blocker, Smoove, MWill, Chillz can take care of that and the boards as well. He will have to be a threat on the offensive end and also hold his position down low on both ends of the court.

Just as Detroit realized they needed the 6'11" Rasheed, BK also realizes we need at least one decent (not great) player with heigth as well. Right now we do not have that, so hopefully we will address that need this year. Given that all our talent is at the 2,3, and 4 position it just makes sense that our heighth will have to be at the center position.

We need someone who can occupy the other teams center at both ends of the court (he has to be a threat requiring a block out and also being guarded on the offensive end), that is pretty much all there is to it. Harrington nor anyone else we have is capable of doing that.

[Buzzard]

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if he comes here nad bombs, his trade value will be a negative for us. If he blows up, gets fat and his production drops, we will NOT move him. You can basically forget it. Unless it's a crap for crap deal. If he just doesn't fit in here, sure we'll have takers. But we're not going to equal value. There's no way to consider it a winning situation for us if that happens.

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I do not understand what is a crap for crap deal? If we give up Al? We are going to lose Al next year anyway. If we just sign him outright, we lose nothing but the money we have paid him.

There are no guarantees, and the only way to get better is to take your shots. Hell, the Lakers are taking a chance on Kwame so they can get better. Curry offers 16 to 20 pts a game upside. If he is cleared medically, why would we not take a chance on that?

[Packfill]

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Even if Curry exceeds expectations and say averages 17 points and 7 rebounds a game - does he really bring anything to the table that Al Harrington doesn't? I mean, Al is not a great rebounder, shot blocker or defender. Neither is Curry - and you could argue Al is the better rebounder and defender just based on more effort. Al is certaintly the better person.

Curry is definitely bigger and is more of a center, but he does not play as big as he is and would leave the Hawks with the same defense shortcomings that they currently have. So in that sense I do not see how the acquisition helps the Hawks.

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As much as some people knock bk's philosophy on postions, I have never heard him say we do not need a talented player with heighth. Given that Harrington, Childress, MWill, and Smoove are all under 6' 10" it makes perfect sense for us to try and grab a player who is over 6 10".

I don't think he needs to be a great shot blocker, Smoove, MWill, Chillz can take care of that and the boards as well. He will have to be a threat on the offensive end and also hold his position down low on both ends of the court.

Just as Detroit realized they needed the 6'11" Rasheed, BK also realizes we need at least one decent (not great) player with heigth as well. Right now we do not have that, so hopefully we will address that need this year. Given that all our talent is at the 2,3, and 4 position it just makes sense that our heighth will have to be at the center position.

We need someone who can occupy the other teams center at both ends of the court (he has to be a threat requiring a block out and also being guarded on the offensive end), that is pretty much all there is to it. Harrington nor anyone else we have is capable of doing that.

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I thin what Detroit realized is that you need big men who are talented defensive players, who can alter shots and prevent opposing players from establishing position close to the basket and prevent opposing perimeter players from driving into the lane. Curry, despite being big, has limited potential as a defender - he doesn't get much lift and unless he losses some weight he does not have the quickness needed. More importantly, he seems to lack the "tough guy" attitude needed to be a strong defender. That is my concern.

Show me a really good team that does not have an interior defensive presence? Josh Smith is a shot blocker but not a rugged interior defender. There is a reason teams like Phoenix and Dallas reach for players like Kurt Thomas and Eric Dampier.

[chillzatl]

I don't know where you came into the discussion at and how much of the previous posts you read. But the discussion WAS NOT about bringing in curry. FQ said that the contract we offered Curry was a safe contract because if he came here and didn't work out, we could trade him. My contention was that if he came here and bombed, we would have a very hard time moving him. Because, chances are if he bombs, it's going to be because he got fat and lazy. Which makes him a very very hard sell.

Trading Al for Curry, if possible, is as good a move as we are likely to be able to make.

[AHF]

The difference between Al and Curry is pretty simple - one is a low post scorer who shoots a very high % and will draw double teams (and open the floor for others) and the other will get his points in typical forward fashion and is not a low post presence. The value of a low post player is huge offensively and defensively (although Curry has big work to do on the boards and work defensively). IMO, the biggest difference in value between Duncan and KG is that Duncan is a low post player and KG isn't. They are comparably talented but being a low post presence makes the game so much easier for others.

In addition, Curry has more upside and more downside than Al.

[falc82]

I really am starting to think that Curry is the best available Center for this team. His low post offense is something we really need. Double teams will be required to stop him as he shoots down low at a 60% clip, so if we are able to swing the ball around to Salim in the right fashion then he could have open shots all day. Also double teams on Curry allow Childress to slash into the lane and also for Smoove to slam it home. This makes the game so much easier for the rest of the team. His flaws are some of the strong points of this team. Also it should be noted that Smoove isn't very good at blocking his own mans shot just yet (the KG one aside) and is more of a weakside blocker which would mean he would have an impact as a help defender for Curry's man. I think Smoove will improve his interior D this year however because of his added bulk. Curry is simply the type of guy we need down low that can be impossible to cover one on one for the other team and that could open up the lanes and provide wide open shots for our young guys.

[Buzzard]

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FQ said that the contract we offered Curry was a safe contract because if he came here and didn't work out, we could trade him. My contention was that if he came here and bombed, we would have a very hard time moving him. Because, chances are if he bombs, it's going to be because he got fat and lazy. Which makes him a very very hard sell.

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And my contention is as long as he is healthy he will not be a total bomb. Then again it all has to do with what you consider a bomb. Damp got 60mill and was a dud for the better part of his career. Curry will be tradeable as long as he can score.

Unless you think he will be a dud in that manner which I don't. Out of shape or not, motivated or not, Curry will be tradeable for the same reason Damp got his big contract. 7 footers that have talent are hard to come by and there will be a gm that will take a chance on Curry. Whether it only gets a 2nd round pick or a low 1st, someone will be interested.

[Final_quest]

I exactly agree with James, but Chillz this conversation started when we were talking about bluffing with Curry's contract. You talked about the danger of Chicago calling our bluff, and being stuck with Curry when we never wanted him. That's when I said with the contract terms listed we could easily trade him if we wanted. Now you have said we would keep him if he maintained his career averages.

To me that doesn't make sense if your original contention is that the Hawks are bluffing and don't want Curry at all. Why would the Hawks keep a player that they never wanted, if they could trade him? I know this thread has gone several directions so it's been difficult to follow.

Bottom line for me I maintain that Curry would have to basically be unable to play at all for the contract to be untradeable.